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    Cleated tracks... just wondering

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    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Cleated tracks... just wondering
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 9:10 AM
    This isn't meant to be a rehash of the "debate", but I'm more than a little bit puzzled by the common opionion that rubber tracks are faster than the old school cleated tracks. It seems to defy physics. Nobody can argue that a cleated track and suspension will basically freewheel in the chassis.with the belt off I can easily turn the track with one hand. I can't do that on the rubber track, it seems like the rubber track takes more effort to turn.The cleated track is lighter and it seems reasonable that the cleats offer a better mounting surface for the studs.Has anyone actually ran a cleated setup vs a rubber setup in the same sled and have any real-world comparisons?What would you attribute any increase in top speeds or reduction in ET to,rubber vs cleated? I'd guess that some of the perception that rubber tracks are faster are a result of some of the other changes that occur as the normal progress of the engine/drive components, but maybe they really are a faster setup. What I'm looking for is why.
    Disclaimer:
    1.Not trying to stir debate here, simply looking for a reasonable explaination.
    2.Not suggesting that anyone go back to cleated tracks or change any rules anywhere.
    3.No offense to anyone related to race, gender,ethnicity,opinion,political affiliation,sanctioning body,state of residence,brand of sled or physical stature is intended or implied. I'm just askin!

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      August, 2005
    • From: Jackson Mi.
    Posted by prostock99 on Friday, February 10, 2006 9:41 AM

    It has nothing to do with which track is faster. At Octono Falls when the KandK insurance adjuster was standing in the staging lanes, a cleated track let go on Jerry Solems sled, unfortunately a bar hit his son in the leg. It took him quite a while to recover. Paul McClouud then pitched a track at the finish line, the beginning of the end of the cleated track. Granted if you are lake racing, or are not collectible on, the rule has no bearing on you. But when you go to Court, which Mike and Myself have, the only evidence they bring into court is the ISR rule book. This is the rules the insurance company goes by, as no one else has a rule book governing snowmobile racing of all kinds, and it is backed by all the manufacturers. They have a law in Mich which they can designate blame in percentages. So if someone wins a million dollar suit, and they find you twenty percent liable, you owe $200.000. It does not make any difference if you have a DNR permit, there permit is for access. It is up to you to furnish safe conditions for the invited participants, and spectators. And remember they can read, so all they have to do is look at someones computer to see if they had anything to do with a race. All imformation in a computer stays with a computer, you can't just delete it and it's gone. Which is faster has no meaning anymore because they have banned them, and believe me everyone on here knows that.

    Dave Dunigan

    www.DuniganRacing.com Prostreet Motorcycle Team 1st in the 30's & 40's And Now the 20's Congrats Paul 8.11
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Tiverton Ontario
    Posted by VintageElanGuy on Friday, February 10, 2006 10:40 AM

    Mr Dunnigan:

    You did not answer the man's question. I think he understands why they are not legal to run but his question was related to comments that rubber tracks were faster.

     

    Mr. Noakes

    Rob Noakes

    GPK Racing

    Where Vintage sleds are always the feature!

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    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 10:40 AM
    Gotcha Dave.I fully understand where you are coming from.I don't disagree with a word you have said and I am simply asking a question about the benefit of going to a rubber track over a cleated.Some claims have been made and I was simply wondering if they are true, and if they are,why? More from a mechanical point of view.EVERYTHING about racing is dangerous to some degree and we all assume some liability of some sort when we choose to do anything fun.I went out of my way to say that I'm not trying to s hit stir.I get it that the debate has been over for a long time and that the rules are the rules.By the way,when you adapt a cleated suspension to rubber,can you run a 132" rail on a 136" rubber track or do the rails need to be changed too?chuck.Smile [:)]

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Lower Michigan
    Posted by MiModRacer on Friday, February 10, 2006 11:03 AM

    Dave is right, K& K and many other insurance companies uses ISR as the bible for safety. They write policies using the ISR rule book as reference point for what is insurable. Right or wrong this is now the standard in issues of liability.It has become to great an obsticle to overcome. It now affects who will sponsor a Race Series, a class etc.  So again,  it has stuck right or wrong. I have first hand experience in this problem as a race series promotor trying to get insurance & sponsors. I can still get insurance but many of the historical sponsor/vendors are making to many demands of me vs what their support is worth because of this.This cleated track issue could have been handeled by now if from the start they, (ISR) had done a phased withdrawl. Thats the plan at MRRSIDR. As far as I'm concerned, their arrogance led to 75% of the problem. With that said lets move on.  The big picture here is getting everybody back together .Were supposed to be having fun here, so lets concentrate on being positive about the series this year and get to the rest of it after we see what comes out of the spring ISR meeting. MMR 

     

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Algonac, MI
    Posted by D&S RACING TEAM on Friday, February 10, 2006 11:10 AM
     MiModRacer wrote:

    Dave is right, K& K and many other insurance companies uses ISR as the bible for safety. They write policies using the ISR rule book as reference point for what is insurable. Right or wrong this is now the standard in issues of liability.It has become to great an obsticle to overcome. It now affects who will sponsor a Race Series, a class etc.  So again,  it has stuck right or wrong. I have first hand experience in this problem as a race series promotor trying to get insurance & sponsors. I can still get insurance but many of the historical sponsor/vendors are making to many demands of me vs what their support is worth because of this.This cleated track issue could have been handeled by now if from the start they, (ISR) had done a phased withdrawl. Thats the plan at MRRSIDR. As far as I'm concerned, their arrogance led to 75% of the problem. With that said lets move on.  The big picture here is getting everybody back together .Were supposed to be having fun here, so lets concentrate on being positive about the series this year and get to the rest of it after we see what comes out of the spring ISR meeting. MMR 

     

     
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    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by Riley7 on Friday, February 10, 2006 11:10 AM
    Craig, excellent post!  You've summed it up quite well, as has David from a legal standpoint.  It is what it is, and we are where we are, so it's time to move forward.

    In regards to performance issues with the rubber tracks, I wish Poorboy or Phil Barr would jump on this thread.  Todd Serra was dead set against rubber tracks in the beginning, and is now sold on them.  He has excellent info in regards to a direct switch over from cleated to rubber, using the same basic suspension, motor, clutches, etc. 

    Dana, I know you're reading this, could you please clarify?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Lower Michigan
    Posted by MiModRacer on Friday, February 10, 2006 11:18 AM
    D & S we have no more race dates this year. MMR
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Algonac, MI
    Posted by D&S RACING TEAM on Friday, February 10, 2006 11:21 AM
    Thank you.

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    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 12:17 PM
    Chuck,back when we first had to change over to run the grass,we went from a 112" cleated to a 116" rubber on our 440 open mod.At that time a new track and drivers cost me about $350.I spaced out the suspension myself and we went racing.Rubber hooked as well as cleated if not better.Et's were about the same but mph went up slightly.Nicest thing was little maintenance compared to the cleated.When Todd switched the 1000 over to rubber a couple of years ago to run the grass it came right off the trailer and ran 1.11 60ft. times.We can't compare to what it would run with a cleated because it was years ago since it was run on the grass.My 700 open mod was changed over to rubber for the ice and was about 5mph faster with the rubber than with the cleated.The 1000 ran the rubber track for the first time this year on the ice.With the new motor it ran 4.98@138 on soft ice.Is the rubber track faster?Maybe or maybe not but I know we wish we had changed over years ago.After the first pass the track is pretty much streched as far as it is going to.No constant adjusting the track and having to check the cleats all the time.Remember,we fought this change as much as anyone,just ask Dave Dunnigan!Hope this answers your questions alittle.
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Lower Michigan
    Posted by MiModRacer on Friday, February 10, 2006 12:35 PM
    Hi Dana, are the drivers your using on the rubber track driving off the rubber nubs or is it a combo of that and the track windows like they do with anti ratchet drivers ? I'd like to have a rubber track clinic at one of the MRRSIDR get togethers so people get it right the first time they spend the money to do this. MMR
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 12:41 PM
    Craig,we are using the combo drivers which lets you run the track alittle looser and you only have to run 2 drivers.
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 12:45 PM
    only real differance is that our drivers are made of unobtainium which is lighter than air which lets the track turn much much easier.Wink [;)]Stick out tongue [:P]Devil [6]
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 12:55 PM
    Thanks, Poorboy.that's exactly the type of info I am looking for. Please bear in mind that I am not involved in sanctioned racing and have no real desire to be at this time. I'm happy on the lake doing my own thing. On the other hand, if there are real benefits to changing to rubber, and it doesn't require a ton of money to have a safe swap,I might do it.keep 'em coming-chuck.

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:02 PM
    Chuck,what size tracks are you running now and what suspensions?There are alot of different ways you could go about changing over to rubber.One big advantage is that if you wanted to go to a race somewhere,you would not have to worry about whether or not they would let you run a cleated track.I know better than most about trying to run on a budget but it can be done fairly cheep.
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:25 PM
    It's a 132" Proline about 2 years old with a standard Wahl cleated.This in a F chassis that I just finished up.1000 HTG stroker, built more like an improver than a prostocker.I do all my own fabrication and can make anything I need. Looks fairly simple, just widen the rail center to center for the rubber track size and probably add some idlers here and there.What's the best choice for a track?Thanks-Chuck.

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:30 PM
    Depending on how much adjustment you have,you could go to either a 128"firecat track or 136".
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:36 PM
    Probably a 136" will be the one. Anybody cutting them down to 13" wide ?

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      August, 2005
    • From: Jackson Mi.
    Posted by prostock99 on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:40 PM

    I do know this the et, and mph keep coming down every year. This is every year since the rubber track was made mandatory. Just so you know, Todd Serra blew a cleated track at River-De-Lou in the open class final, at the finish line, The damage was terrible, lucky for Todd, he walked away with some sore spots and bruises. The question still does not make any sense, cleated tracks are illegal, and I believe there is a move to make them illegal in Vintage racing also. When we were trying to prove that the cleated track was safe, Bob Quigley, Paul McCloud, Woody's, ISR and myself were going to Camoplast to run a comparison between the cleated and the rubber tracks. Two of the main players backed out at the last minute, to much liabilty. They believe the results would have been bad for both parties, as no holes would be allowed in tracks for tests, except for rivets to hold bars on. They banned the cleated track the next year.

    Dave Dunigan

    www.DuniganRacing.com Prostreet Motorcycle Team 1st in the 30's & 40's And Now the 20's Congrats Paul 8.11
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:41 PM
    Camoplast makes a 136" by 13.5" drag track with .54 lugs.I wouldn't go trying to cut a track,besides it's illegal for sanctioned racing.
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Lower Michigan
    Posted by MiModRacer on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:43 PM

     poorboy wrote:
    only real differance is that our drivers are made of unobtainium which is lighter than air which lets the track turn much much easier.Wink [;)]Stick out tongue [:P]Devil [6]

    Damn, Dana, is that the same stuff you made your ported chain case out of ??     Big Smile [:D]  

     

    BTY whats the shortest track they made thats 13.5 wide. Alot of the smaller mods are running 112 to 118 " tracks. So whats our best option in your opinion. ? MMR

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:50 PM
    Damn, just formulating a plan and I'm already illegal. Thanks again Dave. You might want to switch to decaf until this race is over, you seem edgy.Wink [;)]

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Martin, MI
    Posted by kutter on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:53 PM
    roll your change and buy a rubber track. otherwise please stop posting about it.

    LMBSS.NET burn it down and walk away

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: whitmore lake,mi.
    Posted by poorboy on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:54 PM
    yes it is the same material the ported chain cases are made of.I run a 116" kimpex speedster track on the 700.Camoplast also makes 116" tracks but not 13.5 wide.Not sure but I think the shortest13.5 is the 128 firecat track.They do make a 14" wide 121".
    Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Anchor Bay MI
    Posted by chines on Friday, February 10, 2006 1:58 PM
    Bite me Kutter, it's a publickkk forum and I'm asking a reasonably intellegent question.Maybe you think it's smart to buy or build without asking questions, but I think not. It's not my fault it got hijacked and took the "scenic route".Chuck.

    Self proclaimed President, Southeastern Muskamoot Bay Drag Racing Association. 5 members, and a few more that I'm considering.no dues. God bless the second amendment and thank god for the fifth.

    Any engineer can design an a-s-shole, they need an operator to make it s-hit!

    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by Riley7 on Friday, February 10, 2006 2:05 PM
    Chuck, people would show you a lot more respect, and you'd gain a lot more credibilty, if you'd refrain from dumb comments like the one you just directed at Dave Dunigan in regards to laying off the caffiene because he's edgy.  Comments like that aren't relevant to the current conversation, so why stir $hit?  Up to that point this thread had been fairly productive.
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Lower Michigan
    Posted by MiModRacer on Friday, February 10, 2006 2:29 PM
    Ok, Dana now you got me doing math.   116x15= 1740 sq in. 121x14 = 1694 sq in, so "technically"  the the 121 has less rubber. Question is whick is better:  short & fat or long & skinny. Maybe this is a question I should write  "Cosmo" about.    Then you go to 128x13.5 = 1728. ???   But your sliding more clips over the sliders which should = more friction across the bottom. Then again maybe the 13.5 bends easier around the drivers. Confused [8-)] MMR
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Martin, MI
    Posted by kutter on Friday, February 10, 2006 2:42 PM
     chines wrote:
    Bite me Kutter, it's a publickkk forum and I'm asking a reasonably intellegent question.Maybe you think it's smart to buy or build without asking questions, but I think not. It's not my fault it got hijacked and took the "scenic route".Chuck.
    so whats the question? who cares if a cleated track is faster, slower or ?? YOU CANT RUN THEM ANYMORE!

    LMBSS.NET burn it down and walk away

    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by Riley7 on Friday, February 10, 2006 2:52 PM
    "short and fat"......."long and skinny"......"friction across the bottom"......"bends easier around the drivers".....Surprise [:O]

    Craig, where is your mind today, lmao!!!!
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Oneida Lake, NY
    Posted by King Motorsports on Friday, February 10, 2006 2:54 PM
    Chuck, if you use the 13.5 track, does the suspension you have even have to be widened at all? I know that HTG takes stock Polaris Edge suspensions and narrows them to run the 128 x 13.5 Firecat tracks using 8" billet idlers in the back. This tells me that the 13.5 tracks use a narrower rail spacing than the 15" tracks, it may be easier than you think.   Mike

     

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