ATTN: All 440-1000 Open Mod Racers

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ATTN: All 440-1000 Open Mod Racers

  • Indy 650 I don't think ISR has an online rulebook, but your sled would be legal in MSDRA index racing.  I believe it would have been fine at the Series this year as well, as the Index classes were run as "specialty classes".   You might want to check the ISR rulebook for their version of "Pro Mod", as I do think your sled would be legal there, with the only question being the front shocks.

    Hope this helps!

  • Thanks Chris

  • Riley you read my mind!

    I was so irritated when I left the Battle on The Bay Last year I swore I didn't care if I ever went back to a dirt or ice race. And I still don't, heck I'm going to be with in a half hour of Infinity next weekend and I really don't know if I will make the effort to go.  The draw there is the old friends that will be racing but I could care less to see guys like OSP run.  Any more it seems the only thing that matters is setting world records or beating the clock and feeding really big egos!  The fun isn't there anymore.   

    That is one place I'll give the oval enduro guys alot of credit, there is a whole lot of fun being had all day at those races by the racers and crews. 

    Ryan Compton


  • Chris, The reason I started this post is exactly what you said, I remember when this sport used to be fun! I remember all the stockers and mods at the races and I would always go to the line to watch the 440 mods. Me and Dave Decker was talking about it a few days ago that all we had 15 years ago was Snow Week magazine, (I didn't even own a computer). Thats where we bought and sold all our stuff, Found ALL the races, read all the articles.  We went to all the races, We didn't know who would be there or what kind of times they ran, It didn't matter. Now people won't go to a race because they know of certain sleds that might be there and be faster than they are, Who cares what kind of times they run maybe you can get a good hole shot and win. I was just wondering why all those guys stopped racing, Not where they are now but why they stopped coming. I guess now I remember what happened to the stockers like you said, F-7, Snowcross, Tech, etc... It seems like the stock class would of been a tough class to be in.

  • ou81doo how have you been ? I thought I would have seen you @ the series with that p/s 700 . Factory Mod 1 is alive and well always have to run a heat to get to the final . I agree 100% that Factory Mod 2 should include 800 p/s and factory oem cyclinder 1000 p/s . Get those 880 ,925 , 950, 975 , and 992 back out on the track.

  • Ok Chris,

    Have you forgotten for 7  of the last 10 years I had been running or attempting to run races.  Not only did I not have time to race , I could have easily built a whole other sled with $$ that went out the door to do it, & I don't regret it one bit. .   It came down to this, Either I raced or  I ran races to the best of my ability.  My , family and my guys Darrel, Steve and Dave went above and beyond for this sport.  .  But that did not stop me from needing to bounce in every direction constantly from giving technical advice/encouragement to inexperienced racers to keeping the flow of the race on track & about 10 yada, yadas beyond that too.   .  I believe we had one negative comment about us in all those years on Amsnow.   That speaks for itself . I think & I have to believe half the reason for that was constant communication going out , including attempts at contacting everybody by phone each year to see what their thoughts were about improving or fixing the situation. Lord knows , they could have bitched alot about the number of weather cancellations we had or the foo who lost us a season with the pick up truck.

    On your $20 comment.  I was in fact upgrading my sled away from the race at this time .Things like Stroker crank, all Ceramic Bearings  from motor to rear wheels, Updated/reburnt ignition& Brain Box & an ill fated update on the suspension . Hoping to get back in at some point when the deal didn't revolve around me.

    Good God, The Cleated track thing , you know, I knew about that before your first and only ice race so far & said nothing online about it to impact your event at the time other than saying I wouldn't be coming.Even took some abuse on here and kept my mouth shut.  Thats cause I was & then was not going to drop in the new suspension I had in my hands( Cleated one) for its first and last race at your event.

    Your comment about the fact they (Mods)aren't around in Viable numbers is puzzling and contradictory to your stated goal of more racers at the events .  I know where alot of them (440-500) are in Michigan and you wonder why I can't track your agenda.  There are more than enough right here in our back yard to be very viable at least in these classes. I'm not just screwing with you on this, its a fact.. The only question is will they race them & if not will they sell them to somebody who would. There is no need to pull from other states to do it here . When I comment about MSDRS & the need for inclusion, thats for the bigger picture of a WS event and all getting on the same page .  Hell I don't even know if that would be possible.  We throw on a rubber & then whats up with us not running a front IFS at an IRS World Series, Do you know if thats being enforced ?   

    In closing I guess whats surprised me the most about this latest deal is this:  If I was running races and I had someone offer to attempt to help me get more racers there in any class  I'd be on the phone with them. Then if their game plan stayed within tolerances, I'd openly support & see where I could help ..   Not seeing that, and I know you know all the details of how our communications went last year off line. Where is the help ?

    No interest in taking over , just talking turkey about the situation .  Feedback is good if you can accept as constructive.  Can you ?




  •  The ONLY form of drag racing that is growing right now is VINTAGE. Here in Minnesota and Wisconsin the number of entries for vintage drag races FAR exceeds the late model entries on both ice and grass. Why? Because vintage is far lesser expensive, and gets racers back to the grass roots of racing. Another reason that vintage ice drags are growing here is the midwest while late model drag racing is failing is that the vintage ice races are NOT ISR affliated,...and never will be. None of the current manufacturers have any stake in the vintage racing game, and have NO interest in it,...which is actually a good thing. Because of this, no ISR rules are needed. Cleated tracks are still welcomed on the ice, long as they are in good condition. No weight restrictions, fuel restrictions, engine tear downs and all the other rules that come with ISR affliation. From what I have seen over the last 10 years the ever changing rules/restrictions of late model racing has lead to a decline in the sport. You late model racers arent going to like me saying this,...but there have been FAR more entries at the grass drags here in the midwest from the vintage than from late model sleds at the same events. The vintage racing has almost become the main attraction. The late model racing has almost become a side show,...while the vintage has twice the amount of interest and excitment,..and twice the amount of race entries. Any of the late model racing organizations such that see/acknowledge and accept the current popularity of vintage drag racing,....understand why it is working and can figure out a way to hitch their wagon to it,......will be the race organizations that survive

  • Craig, You had that list of 440 guys when you was running your circuit and none of them came, Thats what I'm trying to figure out now is why they stopped coming to race, I thought for sure they would show up at the big 9 but they didn't. Also, And don't take this wrong, But would you seriously run your 10-15 plus year old cleated track down a track right now and feel safe after it has sat for so long? Or would you spend the big money and buy a new one from Wahl that has also sat for 10 plus years? Not trying to be a smart ***, But stick a 128 or 136 X 13.5 closed window track and suspension under it and you will be amazed!  NOT A pissy little 121.

  • If I ever built a 440/500 mod again ( big if ) It would have a 136 under it and be faster than our old 121 rubber tracked sled.

  • Ok Todd you first,

    Big 9,   Decent place, to far south for consistent weather and a Spring fed lake that fought us every year. 12 to 14 inches in some places on the track and pits and 5 inches & less in others. Location vs (small Mods at least ) home base.Moist of these guy lived from Grand Rapids to Traverse City . I know , I had a Michigan map on the wall with Stick pins noting everybodys location in Michigan  As a  reference.  I had somewhere between 165 and 190 racers located and receiving consistent updates via E mail, Ph, Fax or letter.  They began to showed up when we went north, Lake City & Cadillac but not south.  All I can deduct from it is we needed to be North to convince them a race was actually going to happen. It was not really feasible for us to do that on a regular basis  without charging a bunch more and the available time constraints on the the key people that needed to be there to pull it off.  We all agreed that with our class packages/rules , and our ability to execute ,had we been home based at a place like Houghton Lake, would have had Michigan Ice racing rockin pretty decent again if we got the weather. Lesson learned, ---Houghton Lake & surrounding area in the interior of the state = the most chance for turnout and favorable ice.  Look who has ice even this winter--, Lake City, strait West of Houghton Lake.

    PS on this,  It was never our goal to take over Michigan Ice Racing, We enjoyed it and learned just how much of a time consuming monster it is to do this. All we wanted to do is keep it alive until hopefully a better group out of Michigan would take over and run multiple ice races within the state . cuz man all  the 4 of us we really wanted to do is race !

    ON the Tracks ,  Todd, yes age finally came up as a feasibly  legit argument. I cked with Wahl, True enough, new belting was still old belting, end of argument .

    Todd & Pete,

    I defer to your better knowledge on rubber tracks.  I will say I do not care whats better on grass, just ice.  Call it my agenda, you caught me. I admit it.

    Since these ( At least smaller ) Mods m/l ranged from 112 to 118 on cleated tracks. I thought 121 rubber ones would be the ticket for these particular sleds in the Mod category.   I know they will make a old 112 inch sled noticeably  more stable .  With the Hp available in these sleds  its time for you to school me on why something even longer is going to be faster.  I don't care where this lands, all I care about is lets do this once, lock it down as the no option rule, and then leave us alone and let us race.

    I gotta go, I'm gettin the evil eye, damn honey do list.  Please both of you respond to the question.


  • That Girl Racing

    If I ever built a 440/500 mod again ( big if ) It would have a 136 under it and be faster than our old 121 rubber tracked sled.


    Traction, Traction, Traction

  • If there is a list of all these sleds sitting in garages and barns in Michigan that would race my suggestion is: call them all up, post on here put out flyers whatever. Once yoy have the attention of them then set a date for early in the grass season like June, get in touch with Infinity and work out a deal for a test n tune / interest in the class weekend and go race. Only OM sleds that way you know the interest and are able to discuss the future of your class / group with like minded people. This will once and for all prove what interest there is and allow racers to get the cob webs out of the sleds and themselves on the track with timers. Then you can go to the organizations with your plan and needs as a group..... I do not remember any one from this class (440 500) coming to the MSDRA meeting at Tom Bs last yr except Mr Decker....... Now I do not have an OM as Im not fond of the looks but to each thier own. I do have newer chassis 440's and some 440 bottom ends sitting around. My question is can you build a competative 440 full body Looking sled to run in the OM class or will it be to heavy? Is there a driver / sled weight. Im not building a sled to put someone else on.... Now to the side bar of the original post: the dying of the sport....well it isnt just fuel cost and sled build costs it is also the gate cost and class cost which add up to about $75 - 100 before you make one pass down the track in one class. This is why you can not get new people out. If you do not have a place to test prior to a race it is pointless to go and new comers who do come get discouraged real quick. Add to that poor organization at some races and people get turned off. The big races are dying because of costs and lack of even playing field. I know people always say go test but most new comers dont have the ability to. They have more FUN at the $20 backyard no prize money races where they make more than one pass every 4 hrs if they make more than one at all at sanctioned events...... If organizations had a set track like infinity you could Hold a test n tune June July Aug and I bet those sessions would have more than any race $20 / sled test all day. Run a couple shoot outs at the end of the day each month. One month 440 500 next 600 / 700 shoot outs next month 800 1000 or something like that $50 to get in one qualifying pass four at a time two go on or a couple diff index classes each test session and a bracket race. This way people get to test and if desire race for some $$ ....... Michael M.


     RIP LOKI you were the best Puppy ever and best friend I could have ever asked for. Your life was to short buddy Nov 06 2003 - February 23 2011.  

  • Mike M. gets it.


    91 42ft Fountain 

    14 XF1100 Turbo 

    13  F1100 Turbo

    14 ZR 7000

    09 Z1 Turbo

    97 Indy 500

    78 El Tigre 6000

    79 Centurion 500

    81 SRX 440

    83 VMAX 540

    74 TNT 440 F/A

    '72 Kitty Cat

    '99 Road Glide


  • Craig, Rhubarb has a great idea about getting with Infinity for a private mod testing weekend, It would show whos willing to come back out, You have a whole year to organize it.  121X15=28 lbs.  136X13.5=29 lbs. Only 1 pound difference, You gain: No lift you will leave flatter, Traction, You will go straight, Consistancy. These gains will overcome the reciprocating weight your worried about, If it didn't everyone would still be using 118 and 121 on ps600,700,800&1000. (Don't read this Decker!)

  • Ha , Todd I got Decker on Speed Dial. Your cooked !Stick out tongue

    Ok, I'm listening.

    Next Q-----  whats the distance between the mounting points of a 136 Suspension ? ( I'm worried about running out of tunnel & that is a deal killer cause I don't think these guys will bite on building new tunnels)   Gotta Keep the cost down or else were off to the rodeo as the lone ranger.

    On Rhubarbs wt Question.  

    My 500cc twin with a small radiator & a 115 Cleated track is 272# with no driver on it. Current rules say, 250 # sled in open Mod & the Driver can weigh anything.  Heavy Mod 440-500 is 500# . The bigger the sled cc wise & Cyl wise the more they actually weigh with no driver.  By the time you get to 800-1000 as I recall your mostly seeing sleds north of 350# ...   Oh, my track weight is 21 - 22 lbs studded.  No titanium on it .  If you went total titanium bars & Studs  ??? $4000 range it would probably be around 18 lbs . ( Buts that idea is history at this point & I had one & found that Steel cleats are slipperier than titanium anyways) Friction ]   Now comes the next part of what feel is a positive idea & before anybody starts to think I'm proposing this as a personal agenda plus for me personally & my sled let me explain. My only real threat in my starting class has been a 500 3 cly. or maybe if somebody comes along and builds a super twin 500 cc.( Pete had a pretty stout 500 twin as I recall. ) A 500 cc 3 cly normally will  be in the range of 20# heavier sled vs sled than a 500cc twin.  So for me to propose upping the minimum wt is in fact possibly making my sled more vulnerable.  So here we go.  Current rules as stated above is 250 lbs + driver in OM.  I'm purposing OM goes to Minimum 450 lbs sled and driver in these classes & Heavy Mod Stays where its always been.  Why   ?  Practical experience & Statistical fact, and the need to make it closer to an even playing field to draw and keep these racers coming back.   Small Mods ( at least 440 & 500 twins ) show huge et changes  once weight is added. A common Number is 2-10ths on the ice between Open Mod & Heavy mod with these sleds.  Under the current outdated rule a sled with a 100 lb driver has a huge advantage over what most of us feel is a light wt driver at #150 on these sleds in OM.  You guys spoke of time slips scaring people away, er well I'd rather race 20 sleds at 450 lbs than 6-8 even if its possibly not to my tactical advantage.  The old saying "Open Mod is Open Mod"  ain't working, OM is currently dead or or dieing. Others have proposed changes in the higher cc Mods that would cost some people more than this so why not fix this glaring potential competitive disparity.  Hell if your stuck on the reverend name " Open Mod " then lets just rename it something else -- Fat, Slow, but cool looking scardy cat Mod . I don't care



    Forgot a PS...  Probably a 440 Should be able to jump into 500OM at 430 lbs .  Thats worth a Tenth.  & if it isn't already a rule ( I get confused), a 500 should be able to Jump into 600 Heavy mod at 500 lbs not what I recall is the actual weight of 600 Hvy of 525 to 550 lbs