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    SNOWTECH 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke Article

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    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Clarion Pa
    SNOWTECH 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke Article
    Posted by Vmax540 on Friday, August 05, 2005 10:36 PM
    After reading their 2 cents on the 2 vs 4 Stroke debate did anyone get the feeling they were trying to convince themselves or us that the 2 strokes are still the better overall choice ? 
    Less is More !
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:36 AM
    No I didn't get that impression. I think they were just being politcaly correct. They are too wimpy to take a stand one way or another for fear that they may offend any of the manufacturers. You would think they were running for a political office with some of their articles. I really like when they report on a sled that has gone thru some big changes and they say how bad the old version was but if you read their original report on the old version all they had to say then was how great it was!
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 06, 2005 12:37 PM

    Actually 2-strokes have gone a long way in the last 2 years just because of the threat of 4-strokes. The Doo's do as well as the 4-strokes in MPG.  Emissions, while not as good as the 4 bangers, are still good enough to satisfy the regs for many years.  2's are still lighter and get more HP per CC.

    The main argument that can be made for the 4 bangers is durability, they have the ability to be abused much more severly and not have adverse affects.  In the hands of soemone who takes care of their stuff, there is little difference in durability.

    I forgot.  Saving money and hassle by not dealing with oil every day that you ride, is advantageous as well.

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: WI
    Posted by PurpleZRT on Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:17 PM
    I didn't read the article but I'm well aware of the advantages of each power plant. The bottom line is in a snowmobile application with a CVT powertrain ( where the clutching system keeps the engine at one RPM under WOT) a two stroke engine is by far the best choice. That is ESPECIALLY true in performance models were handling, suspension performance, and acceleration are considered to  be the most important features of the sled. Power vs weight......the two stroke wins hands down.
    Those who can.....do Those who can't....only have two AC Triples
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 06, 2005 7:43 PM
    I bought the fourstroke because I'm tired of dicking around with two strokes. I won't have to worry about fouling plugs or the quality of my fuel or when I'm way up north and cruising down the lake weather or not my engine will seize. Fourstrokes are quieter, smoother more fuel efficient and have more low end torque, but the biggest plus is they just don't blow up like two strokes do! I want a sled that I don't have to check my plugs or my compression or my rings or have to clean my power valves and blah blah blah. I want to turn the key and ride and when I have to add gas and ride some more!
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    Posted by yamaman on Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:39 PM
    The 4 strokes are more environmentally friendly.  Besides why pay $28.00 a gallon for oil, when you can change your oil once a year at most.  Two strokes burn oil and stink up your clothes.  They pollute the air and water when the ice melts.  Also the oil falls out of the exhaust and pollutes the ground.  Can anyone give a reason why there are no more 2 stroke cars.  Autounion(Audi), DKW,and Saab used to be only 2 strokes.  They don't make them any more and my bet is that by 2012 there won't be anymore 2 stroke sleds being produced.  Even weedwackers are going 4 stroke.
    Ride Safe, Ride Sober! Loud Pipes Lose Trails
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 06, 2005 9:03 PM

    Cars are 4-strokes because weight is not an issue, emissions - and they can be abused and will hold up long term.

    If someone is fouling plugs on their 2-stroke all the time - it is becuase they don't get it fixed.  Either your jetting is screwed or your oil flow is screwed.  If you take care of your two stroke, which does take more time and more of a hassle to many, so they don't, but if you do, they should last you just as long as a four stroke.

    4-strokes require less maintenance, there is no doubt.  This is also beneficial to the manufacturers because many of their warranty claims are paid out even though it was customer abuse, 4-strokes cut that # down significantly.

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: WI
    Posted by PurpleZRT on Sunday, August 07, 2005 12:22 AM
    Again.......we hear things like "the smell" ( which alot of us two stroke lovers, "real men" actually enjoy), "quieter" ( rolling eyes), "environmentally friendly" (choke-puke), "fouling plugs" ( I haven't fouled a plug since I can remember, I slap in a new $6.00 set once a year, just to be safe....WOW!!)and this "low end torque" bull****......what does that have to with a motor on a CVT powertrain that runs @ peak rpm?.....the answer....NOTHING! Even if it did...the ZR 900 motor makes 45% more torque at 5500 rpm  than the Yammy 1500 4 stroke. Who cares if the 4 stroke makes big torque at 2000 rpm?...the clutches aren't engaged.  The four stroke torque thing doesn't apply to snowmobiles.
    Those who can.....do Those who can't....only have two AC Triples
    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by justfishing on Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:30 AM

        Hey Purple Zit!! Check out the vid if you think four stroke torque doesnt mean anything!!!  They are still fourstrokes even if they are turbo.

     Where did all the 2 stroke bikes go if 2 stroke is so good?

    http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=sledwinism1

     

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 07, 2005 11:25 AM
    Sweet video, but they are all turbos.  Turbo RX'1s are the norm in the mountains because stockers can't compete with stocker 2-strokes, mainly because of power/weight ratio.  The mountains are probably the only place where the Yammi 4's aren't close to equal with the 2's.
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: WI
    Posted by PurpleZRT on Sunday, August 07, 2005 9:40 PM

    Hey "slowmin"...you're an idiot. I don't need a video to understand hp/torque and how the physics work.  Simply put...It's the function of a CVT powertrain to keep the motor at optimal RPM...and in the case of WOT acceleration it keeps the motor at?...peak torque?...NO....IT KEEPS IT AT PEAK HORSEPOWER.  

    BTW...bikes went the way of four strokes because of political pressure from greenies. In  performance / racing applications two strokes STILL offer significant advantages over four strokes. Because of political pressure to eliminate two stokes the racing sanctions have made obvious moves to give four strokes "preferred status" and that has controlled what the mfgs build. They make what they can race....period.

    For trail riding... trough a "manual *** fixed ratio" powertain the low end torque and broad powerband of a 4 stoke does have it's advantages....and that it equally true for road bikes. When they start putting fixed ratio trannys in sleds?...... the four stroke may have a place other than grocery getters and 1 ton tanks. 

    Those who can.....do Those who can't....only have two AC Triples
    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by justfishing on Sunday, August 07, 2005 10:49 PM

      Hey purple zit.. dont pop on us now !   I take it you dont care for good mountain riding movies. Oh well your loss. 

     And from what you are saying, CVT transmissions  work the  best with  2 stroke sled HP and Torque, not the four stroke sled kind of HP and Torque. (geeze I didnt know there was 2 kinds ,I am an idiot) Must be the special physics you are into. oookayyy. hmmm. Is your last name Newton?

     BTW  do you know why 2 stroke street bikes up to 1000 + cc  went away with the dinosaurs in the early 1970s?

     Four stroke sleds are here to stay. They will evolve and only get better.

     Jeff  Simons and the boys seem to do quite well with 4 strokes.

     

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: WI
    Posted by PurpleZRT on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:09 AM

    "Buy em books and send em to school and all they do is eat the teacher."

     

     Hp = Torque x  RPM.......FACT...it's physics

    ZR 852cc 510 lbs.......111.37 ft/lbs of torque @ WOT

    RX...1500cc 587lbs....72 ft/lbs of torque @ WOT

    CVT powertains keep the engine RPM contanstant under acceleration or heavy load. FACT..it's physics

     

    Since CVT powertrains keep the engine at max RPM's anytime the power is called for.....the engines torque at "peak RPM" is the only thing that matters.  So yeah...it's obvious you don't understand that..and you are an idiot. It's not that four stroke and two stroke power is different...it's that CVT powetrains match up better with narrow powerband engines...and IF those engines are far superior in hp/weight...that means CVT powertains WITH those motors offer significant performance advantages.  It's just that simple

    Those who can.....do Those who can't....only have two AC Triples
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 8:34 AM
    Just for the record, the 150 fuelie doesn't require any wrenching until 24,000 miles.  Then it's a simple valve adjustment.  There's no garauntee that they actually need it but should be checked.  If a 2-smoke does make it that far you know damn well it's on it's last legs.
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 9:11 AM
    Mightywarrior - what parts are going to be on their last legs compared to a 4 stroke?  What parts are more likely to wear out quicker on a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke and why?  Why is a 4 stroke more durable than a 2 stroke?  Or are you just repeating what you hear from others?
    • Member since
      January, 2010
    Posted by justfishing on Monday, August 08, 2005 10:01 AM

     Hey purple ZIT  

       Your little book of facts is screwed up. 

       RX...   998 cc  NOT  1500.   Peak PTO shaft torque around 91 ft/lbs @7400 rpm, peak PTO shaft hp around 141 @9000.    That PTO hp tapers off to about 130 @ 7400rpm (I used pto hp because that is where the clutch is)  That gives you a  powerband so fat that even a LOOSER like you could clutch it.  

     AND I DONT GIVE A ...... WHAT YOUR LITTLE PURPLE ZIT ENGINE WITH THE NARROW POWERBAND PUTS OUT. 

      4 stroke are here to stay  GET OVER IT!!!

     

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 10:58 AM

    Well, just for starters I can pretty much guarantee you that you will be replacing rings and pistons on a two stroke motor long before you would need to on a four stroke.

    Aside from the obvious, more and more four stroke sleds will be sold every year for the simple reason that poeple just like them better, especialy the guys who ride nothing but trails.  Just look at the outboard motors, I can't even begin to tell you how many poeple I know (including myself) who have bought a four stroke outboard and will never ever go back to a two stroke period. 

     

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 11:09 AM

    Luv, so why are pistons and rings needed more often on a two stroke?  I have had 8 sleds, 2 strokes that never needed pistons or rings because of wear.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the Yammi 4-strokes, but the dependability factor is non-existant if a 2 stroke is well maintained.

    • Member since
      July, 2005
    Posted by yamaman on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:02 PM
    I don't know of anyone who has a 2 stroke with 10,000 miles on it without rebuilding some part(s) of the engine.  I know of 3 different RX 1's that have over 10,000 miles on them and the engines have had no parts replaced.  One of them has over 12,000 miles on it.
    Ride Safe, Ride Sober! Loud Pipes Lose Trails
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    Posted by jasper on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:14 PM
    I'd have to agree 2 strokes are on their way out. Not only are they enviromentally unfriendly they wear out long before a 4 stroke even begins to lose enough power to be noticed. 2 strokes simply do not have the lubricating system a 4 stroke has therefore rings, pistons, not to mention the cylinders,  rod bearings, and seals are prone to more wear, and noticable power loss before a 4 stroke is completely broken in. As far as a 4 stroke application in a snowmobile, I think Yamaha has already put that one to rest. I'm a diehard 2 stroke rider, but after riding the Vector, and RX-1 last season I'm more convinced the 2 stroke is history.
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:17 PM

    LOL, well then, I guess you have never had a fuel/water issue with your two stroke sleds, me either but I now many people who have and I've rebuilt several engines that have.  You don't have that issue with Four strokes. 

    Also......LUBRICATION.

    I personaly do not own a four stroke sled...yet, but my next new sled will be a four stroke.  There are a lot of guys like me out there who love and or loved the tripple two stroke power and smoothness and there just aren't any new two strokes out there like the old XCR/T-cat/SRXs.....it's a preference thing, if you want that your gonna be looking at the four strokes.  Yamaha's new four strokes are as light or lighter than some of the old tripples I loved.  

     

     

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:20 PM

    No offense but that doesn't really mean much. Too small of a sample.  I am guessing you know of these RX's from TY.  Then you should also mention the 3-4 that have had catastrophic failures as well, rods blowing out the crankcase and so on.

    I am truly curious as why people believe the 4-stroke is more reliable than the 2-stroke, technically - assuming the mainenance is there on both. 

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:23 PM
     Luv2sled wrote:

    LOL, well then, I guess you have never had a fuel/water issue with your two stroke sleds, me either but I now many people who have and I've rebuilt several engines that have.  You don't have that issue with Four strokes. 

    Also......LUBRICATION.

    Luv, you are right.  I have never had a fuel/water issue but I do understand 4-strokes are a little less forgiving in that manner.  I have never even witnessed someone who rode with us to have that problem either.  Seems to be more of a dealer scapegoat for getting out of warranty work.

    And proper lubrication - shouldn't be an issue assuming you maintain your sled well.

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:27 PM
    LOL, guess you have never worked at a dealer.  If Yamaha only had three engine failures last year that would be absolutely amazing to me......I know of three people just myself who are rebuilding their two strokes this summer.
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: New Baltimore
    Posted by jtssrx on Monday, August 08, 2005 12:45 PM

     PurpleZRT wrote:
    I didn't read the article but I'm well aware of the advantages of each power plant. The bottom line is in a snowmobile application with a CVT powertrain ( where the clutching system keeps the engine at one RPM under WOT) a two stroke engine is by far the best choice. That is ESPECIALLY true in performance models were handling, suspension performance, and acceleration are considered to  be the most important features of the sled. Power vs weight......the two stroke wins hands down.

    How do you figure. That's a a pretty broad statement. The power band on a four stroke is far superior to a 2 stroke and 100 times more forgiving. When you over-rev a 2 stroke the power completely falls off, this is not true of a four stroke. Plus the band of a four stroke is much broader as well. The idea that you have the throttle pinned all the time is silly. AS a trail rider I'm constanly varing the throttle. That's why TPS has become so popular "another thing Yamaha added first in the industry 00 SRX". If all you did was hold it wide open TPS wouldn't be usefull

     

    The Apex models are right inline with most of the current High perfomace modles "Fusion, Mach Z, and ZR900" With the ZR being the lightest of that bunch. They are ahaind of the old thripple tripple sleds of the late 90's and early 00's. The only sleds lighter are the REVs, Fircats, and XC's that were built to jump mogals. I know for a fact Yamaha will have a 480 pound ditch banger with a 4 stroke next winter. Then what are all you big mouths going to say?????

     

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 1:08 PM
    We are not going to have to say anything.  Yamaha can not build a 480 lb - dry sled and it hold up as a ditchbanger.  The only possibility is if it has a smaller motor than they offer now, in which case it is going to be weak on power.  They would need to drop 80+ lbs. Hard to believe - but  guess you know it as a fact.
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    • From: Clarion Pa
    Posted by Vmax540 on Monday, August 08, 2005 1:19 PM
    Albeit at lower R.P.M.'s most car engines are expected to run 200,000 miles with regular maintenance.
    Less is More !
    • Member since
      July, 2005
    Posted by Jim M on Monday, August 08, 2005 1:41 PM

    There is a practical side to this also.  Don't know about you, but I'm not keen on the backward hat nose-ring kid at the Yammi shop jammin' to rap all day working on MY 4 stroke.  ALOT more complex and having spent a few years in a snowmobile dealership I know how easy a 2 stroke is to work on.  Not for nothing, but IF your top end (or worse) needs repair in the winter just how long will you need to wait?  I'm sort of qualified-hey, I had one of those 2 stoke SAABS! and both kinds of outboards.  To be more practical, we can rebuild a 2 stroke top end for a few bucks and a few hours.  Do this on a 4 and FIRST thing you need is a good clean workstation which is not always the case at Tommy's Snow Shack and Beaver Pond!

    It's not so cut and dried.  Lots of riders prefer a 2 stroke when they have the option.  Our Yammi guy still sold a TON of Cats and Doos of the 2 stroke kind.

    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 2:20 PM
    JTS is correct, the lightweight 4-stroke ditchbanger is coming for 07.  For you naysayers that don't think you can get any HP out of a smaller 4-stroke you are wrong.  My YZ-426 was putting out 56HP and it was just a single.  Give it another jug and you are easily into the 112 range for starters.
    • Member since
      June, 2005
    Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 08, 2005 2:23 PM
    One last note on durability; Full Pressure Lubrication,  Nuff said.

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